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advancedboy

Industrial Product Evaluation.

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I can't believe I am saying this, but I actually agree with some of the things you are saying. I don't think it has anything to do with your original post regarding the car companies though, they are simply a result of the greater underlying problem.

 

I would agree that the trends developing in the global economy seem very short sighted and not sustainable by any means. If we continue to move virtually every industry overseas in the effort to save a few bucks then what jobs are left for us. We have already seen much of the North American manufacturing get shifted to China, as well as many IT jobs. Now it seems that almost any job including design is threatened by this. It is becoming increasingly common for companies in North America to only undertake the initial phase of design to bring out a viable design, then they simply send the design to China where they are more than happy to figure out the rest for a fraction of the cost.

 

There certainly isn't a simple solution though. It is easy to say "buy American" but the catch is that most of these companies who manufacture these products within North America can no longer remain competitive against those do not, and they end up having to close up shop anyways. (This is not limited to just North America as this can be seen everywhere)

 

I think the focus should be on the retention of manufacturing and industry within each country and make imports and outsourced IT jobs heavily tariffed to the point where it becomes unfeasible to have them made or relocated anywhere else.

 

When we trade equally with countries whose population does not have the same quality of lifestyle we do, i think the only long term result is either a complete collapse of our economic systems (because there is no one left with a job to be able to afford the stuff the other country is making, which in turn means they have no one left to manufacture the stuff for), or a leveling out of our quality of lifestyle, which invariably means we will make less money and live a lower quality of lifestyle within North America.

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For those of you that haven't I would highly suggest reading "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman to understand how and why we got to the point we are today.

 

It's not that you're completely wrong AB - it's just that your understanding of why things are and what they should be is way off.

 

There are a lot of things that were done wrong to get to where we are today, but ultimately labor will always be outsourced to where it is cheapest. This isn't where any of these companies went wrong, and Globalization has done many many good things, particularly in improving the conditions of world markets.

 

As conditions improve in these countrys a few things will happen.

 

1: The quality of life increases in those countrys, and this is not a bad thing. You could argue it is at the quality of living of Americans, but I think anyone in America can tell you that the American sense of "Quality of life" is now based around the size of your TV, not your savings account, or your household education, or many other metrics that are much more valuable.

 

2: When the QOL increases, so will wages. When wages increase, the cost of labor will increase, and it will no longer be as viable to manufacture in these countries, so labor will begin to move elsewhere (India, Africa, other countries that can provide lower labor rates) - and ultimately some of those jobs will come home.

 

Ultimately businesses like GM need to be allowed to fail. That failure is the way of the free market, and the government ruining that is what got us to this mess. GM/Chrysler may be able to emerge from this, but it's a bad model for the government and for business, but thats the result of years of crooked politicians, and corporate/union lobbyists.

 

The majority of Americans will either need to wake up one day (hopefully sooner rather than later) and realize that core values of hard work and education are more important than what kind of cell phone you have. This is the reason that people all around the world still flock to America for our universities, why companies like Google and Dell can be born out of a garage and turn into industry leaders, and why ultimately a countries success rides on the shoulders of those willing to invent and innovate, not those who make $10 an hour assembling products.

 

With all that said, it will still take quite a bit of time and quite a lot of people in the US government to be removed from office before people can realize that the nanny state can't solve their problems. With "Jersey Shore" TV ratings as high as they are, I myself am still beginning to think that all humanity may be lost after all.

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There are 2 kind of manufacturing types. Expertize and non-expertize based. iImagine, if you grow corn and there is overproduction of it, the prices drop, and you sorta bankrupt. yet, it doesn`t require long term complex expertize to grow corn. Even after 10 years you can try again to grow corn or other crops. It is completely different with expertize based industries. Expertize needs constant practice and improvement. And every year you don`t sustain your skills and expertize, allows your competitotrs to push ahead. If you allow companies like Gm go bankrupt, you allow their expoertize of car building that has been accrued for last decades simply to evaporate.So for every new company that starts to build from a scratch ,it gets harder and harder to catch up with companies that have continuously improved their products though expertize and R&D. That is why it was easier to compete in times of Ford T, yet it is imposssible for rookies to fight with Nissan Godzilla nowadays. Once the expertize based companies get dissolved, it is hard to scramble highly educated and efficient specialists who would be able to build a competetive product, because expertize is like muscles, it needs constant training and practice.

That is why the biggest asset within any japanese company isn`t their market value, or share price it is their expertize to build things, or putting it other way, their capacity to manage complex manufacturing tasks, that allows them to adapt to any market conditions.

And import tariifs won`t do much either, . Actually US can`t impose any tariffs, because otherwise oriental tigers will simply euthenise US by not buying any US debt.

Besides it is always about product, no matter how expensive you make the imports, it still doesn`t make the US products higher quality or more precisely finished. When Reagan imposed ubertaxes on Japanese bikes in 80ies, how many us based motorbike companies arrived? Did Harley invest heavily in new engines and technology? Ha hahah? If Lexus can easily sell a 50 K luxury sedan yet Gm struggles to sell a regrilled Opel Sintra in mid 20ies, it rather says more about Toyota`s ablity to design a product, than advantages or disadvantages of pricing.

If Germans can build and design cars in-house with all their high costs and complexity, yet US can`t, so it is probably about lack of skills and expertize. Say hello to outsourcing skilled labour.And how exactly it is for Gm cheaper to outsource engine , transmission and platform engineering to west Germany( Adam Opel AG)? it simply boggles my mind. And how exactly is it for Gm cheaper to send this platform to Australia where highly skilled Aussies beef the platforms up and then Gm gets it back to slap a Pontiac logo on it?

Now browsing through CNN and other sites I see, how Us press is trying to dicredit Toyota over their brake issues, even Gm is trying to take advantage of it to lure more customers in their lots. I can say that toyota will come out of it just fine, as they have enough skilled workforce to remove the defects, to learn from their mistakes and to crank out even better products.

I recently found an old National Geographic issue from 70ies, and tried to check who was advertizing there. And there were a lot of US manufacturing companies, like Polaroid, General electric, Zenith Electronics ,etc. I also checked the ads in the latest National Geographic Issues, and they were all full with Japanese and Korean manufacturrs`s ads, while those ads that were from US companies mostly were vapour based- consulting, investment solutions,banking, refinancing, Ponzi scheming,` quantitative easement of credit default swaps and leveraging tools`( yikes!!!) etc.

So I have a question, what would an average American actually need from any US based company / Anything at all?

I can tell you, I have japanese TV set, camera, Wristwatch, Jpanese car, computer, etc. I have Korean phone, refrigerator, microwave etc. No matter how much profits Googles and other who -the hell know-s companies post their huge profits, I relize these US ubercompanies have nothing to do with a customer. Most people will continue to buy Japanese products and send money overseas, the same way as I do. Well, maybe Microsoft is doing business on selling licenses, but it definitely won`t sell it to me. I will simply go and buy a Kawasaki ATV or Bridgestone Blizzak for our harsh winters. So the economy is about the product, that people buy because of their free choice.

PAPA. ROMEO.OSCAR.DELTA.UNIFORM.CHARLIE.TANGO.

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Now, a bit about Toyota recall. The problem with their pedals was that the pedal sort of got stuck, or was released slowly. This is an electronic type of pedal which sends signal through wiring to a throttle sensor and ecu. So there is no cable going to the throttle valve.So the problem is either in shim, bushing, inappropriate lubricant,or sealing. In Japan this system is manufactured by Denso and supplied to various Toyota models. In US, the supplier is different- it is an Indiana based company named CTS. So , while most of consumers will blame japanese Toyota, maybe they should blame someone else. Funnily enough, many people will refuse to buy Toyota and go to domestics, which will have the same CTS pedals, only, the difference is that none of domestic companies will report anything or replace anything, giving an illussiuon that everything is perfect. Besides, this pedal has US patent pending. My reccommendation to Toyota is- next time when you try to save pennies by buying parts from a cheaper bidder, make sure that at least it comes from an expertize driven environment, preferrably, from japan.

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Guest Buff

You may want to check through some of your earlier posts. You're beginning to contradict yourself.

 

Do you know anything about how Toyota evaluate supplier (whom you claimed would only use parts of Japanese origin, i.e. Denso, when I countered that Toyota don't actually make... or indeed design everything themselves) or how Toyota develop the OEM/Tier1 and even Tier2 supplier relations?

 

I've worked for Toyota in both their Derby UK and Deeside UK plants. I have also worked for and with Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers. I have designed manufacturing processes, equipments and technologies for both the automotive and aerospace industries from the lowliest brands to those that would be considered 'blue chip'. I proudly enjoyed an enviable reputation acting as manufacturing consultant for over a decade before 'retiring' to Cornwall and setting up my design business to stop me from getting bored.

 

What I can tell you is the differences between Toyota and say Ford are not as great as you seem to be claiming; however there are philosophical differences that run deeper within those companies that contribute to the difference in the finished product. For example, within Toyota Six Sigma practices takes little precedence, but Taguchi Loss Function is taken very seriously.

 

If I may be so bold as to suggest, It would sound to me you are an avid reader of Jeffery Liker, Daniel T Jones, James P Womack and probably W Edwards Deming too.

 

All good stuff to read, but they only tell a small part of the story.

 

I can tell you this. Chinese, American, German, British or Japanese or indeed any other county are as capable of producing crap as they are of producing the very best. Indeed much 'Japanese product' is actually manufactured outside of Japan. Their lack of their own recourses and high labour costs force them to outsource to remain competitive. After all, would you be willing to pay lets say $50,000 for a Toyota Aygo?

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Guest Buff
I think the focus should be on the retention of manufacturing and industry within each country and make imports and outsourced IT jobs heavily tariffed to the point where it becomes unfeasible to have them made or relocated anywhere else.

 

 

That didn't work for the US auto industry, or the whitegoods or watchmaking industry. This is pure selfish, capatalist, shortsighted, greedy and lazy thinking. Not that I'm levying crtisisum towards you, afterall those so called experts in ecconomics once decreed that this would be a good thing. Their latterday counterparts also thought CDO's would be a good idea too.

 

When we trade equally with countries whose population does not have the same quality of lifestyle we do, i think the only long term result is either a complete collapse of our economic systems (because there is no one left with a job to be able to afford the stuff the other country is making, which in turn means they have no one left to manufacture the stuff for), or a leveling out of our quality of lifestyle, which invariably means we will make less money and live a lower quality of lifestyle within North America.

 

 

I think in this regard you are proabaly correct. Though with 20% of the global population controlling 80% of the wealth, it would be difficult for the tables to turn. in the end we may well continue to see spending fall to ever diminshing market size but with ever increasing margins. Super yachts and supercars are enjoying one of the most sucsessfull periods at the moment and that could well continue unabated for some time to come.

 

I think 'average' Joe' will indeed have to expect less from his life in the west, so that 'average Joe' in Africa/Asia can expect more.

 

If we wish to be selfish and want our eastern cousins to remain oppressed, poor and unhealthy just so we can have cheap 50 inch plasma screen TV's, then I shouldn't be surprised if that was to ultimately back fire upon us and we get our jobs back making cheap products for affluent and free Chinese

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Actually I am not reading any of those books, but I admit, i have enough time and chances to get my hands on many cars, and simply sniff out a component by component checking how the things are assembled, and who actually builds them.

When you said , that there is no much difference between Ford and Toyota, well, I dare to claim that there is- Ford has debt liabilities in excess of tens of billions, while Toyota has none. Take a Toyota Camry or Corolla- it has Toyota engineered engines, transmissions, floorpans, etc with only minor outsourcing. IF you take a similar product from Ford- Focus, for example, it is actually a japanese MAzda 3 derivative, with Mazda engines, Mazda trannies etc. So no matter, if you buy sorta American, even if you want to support local manufacturers, you end up transferring cash to Japan. period. This is the main root cause of joblessness and life standard deterioration in US. Do you really think it is only a coincidence, that Hyundai , BMW, or Mercedes would never allow outsourced components to take over their cars? I really foresee bright future for Hyundai, for one simple reason- the expertize sustaining principle. They try to build the most expertize driven components themselves, whether it be the new platfom or engine for Equus, body crumple zones, or remote gas cap. In those sectors where you can afford to manufacture obsolete technologies without much improving, Detroit 3 doesn`t outsource. Simply lean down under a Det 3 truck , have a look at that live rear axle, leaf springs and drum brakes, and you will see why they desperately want to manufacture trucks. Chevy Express Van anyone?

The countries that are able to manufacture high precision movements, actually do so, whether it be Germany, South Korea or Japan. Those who can`t , either quit as gentlemen, or pretend to be in game by using unfair practices. And even if many Japanese products are manufactured outside Japan, it is still Japanese that design, engineer, and create factories abroad, then supply these factories with Matsushita, Mitsubishi or Fuji or whatever Japanese industrial workbenches, where an American or Latvian worker simply pushes a button `Go` to activate a pre-calibrated operations sequence, giving an illussion that `we the people built the Avensis`. Every American that is given a pink slip and replaced by a japanese industrial robot, actually creates a couple of jobs for Japan- allowing them to employ people to build the robots to replace Joes.Ever wonder why you can have an American bicycle( if ) with Japanese movements ( Shimano) but never vice versa? I guess, you know the answer.....

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Guest Buff
Actually I am not reading any of those books, but I admit, i have enough time and chances to get my hands on many cars, and simply sniff out a component by component checking how the things are assembled, and who actually builds them.

When you said , that there is no much difference between Ford and Toyota, well, I dare to claim that there is- Ford has debt liabilities in excess of tens of billions, while Toyota has none.

 

 

Well not reading would seem tobe some of the problem at least.

 

I went on to comment about their philosophy did I not?

 

Continuing to use the popular Ford-V-Toyota model, Toyota and Ford DO use components from the same scources. the DO use materials to the same specifications, they DO both build to very simmilar tollerances.

 

Principle differances I find by 'sniffing out, component by component and checking how the things are assembled... by incidently, building them myself with my own two hands' are in the longevity of the product.

 

Failures per million in the first 3 years/100,000 km of Ford components are very similar to Toyota or indeed many other european manufactured cars (I cant personally speak for US built vehicals)

 

After that period, there is a gap that begins to open up with Ford tending towards 3x more likely to have failures after 7 years.

 

maybe you would be interested in reading this book

 

http://www.amazon.com/Myths-Japanese-Quali...s/dp/0131808036

 

And having worked as a consultant for both companies... not in some highfalutin white collar management role, but by actually following key Demming, Taguchi and Shigeo principles, donning blue overalls and making the stuff myself to really find out of what problems and magnitude these companies face... INCLUDING TOYOTA on a scale which most would find quite disturbing.

 

I have been escorted from the premises of a number of factories after 'telling it like it is' to some ignorant managers who are more concerned with protecting their arses than actually working in a self sacrificing mode to get the job done to the whole companies benifit.

 

I know that we are agreed in key principles, but I fear you have a slightly distorted view of reality, which I suspect is borne out of your not having real shop floor experiance, but are taking a rather academic view. I humbluy apologise if I am wrong, and indeed I mean to cause you no offence.

 

I don't belive you are far from the mark, but I do think you would benifit from a little re-adjustment in your phiolosophy... but then can't we all?

 

btw. I am enjoying this debate you have raised

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A year ago I read a book ` the way of Toyota` or something like that, it was in grey and red cover. And was surprised that I could agree with everything the author was saying there. And all the clever things actually didn`t come out of some mathematical equations, it actually came from very simple principles of life- Honesty.

I agree that I haven`t been in Ford factories, but I have been in some other factories, including where they service and maintain military jets.

Now about reliability.What parts do usually brake down and what do people report? Will people go to a shop , or be towed by ADAC in germany because of a broken vent knob or vanity visor bulb outage? Probably not. They will report more serious failures like transmission stuck in second gear, or idle sensor broken or,valves rattling. So the more complex a part is the more likely a defect can happen there.Well, a hissing speaker probably would not cause so much of a fuss as as a stalling engine or glitching ecu . So detroit has managed to fake domestic reliabilty by cunningly avoiding of manufacture of complex items in their cars. The complex engines, trannies, suspension pieces have been usually borrowed from other companies,- like Toyota, MAzda, Mitsubishi, Mercedes, Daewoo, Opel, Volvo etc. This gives a fake illusion that Detroit metal is reliable as say, German or Japanese cars. Of course, if MAzda MZR is installed in Mazda 3 , and it doesn`t fail, why should it fail if it is installed in Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Ford Focus, and all of the rest of Ford non-truck cars? ANd Fusion is good because it doesn`t have real Detroit engine like Vulcan or some other cast-iron OHV `miracle`It`s great because it doesn`t have real detroit 4-speed automatic but comes with ZF or Aisin . There si simply not much left that could fail what Detroit stamps. Believe me Ford radios are very good now too, not because Ford would have been sweating their asses off, it is because the job is done by japanese Sony( giving Japanese more highly skilled and paid jobs).Is Delphi on the line? And I don`t mean Greece here.

I would really love to hear your experience in those car factories, especially what were the differences that you observed there?

How do japanese create a bar, a zillion volt restriction laser, that doesn`t allow poor fit and finish and poor quality components to sneak into their assembly lines and facilities?

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Guest Buff

I'm fairly certain this is the book you have read.

 

the-toyota-way.jpg

 

Honesty? well to a point yes, I would have to agree, though dishonesty certainly rears it's ugly head within even the est performing companies.

 

You are also correct that Toyota rely less on mathamatics, but only up to a point.

 

Within Ford Six Sigma principles for example paly a major part, but again this really isn;t the root casue of problems.

 

I see the biggest differance in culture, rather than practice. Both companies employ statistical process control. Both companies use poke-yoke, kaizen, JIT, Heijunka etc.

 

Where they do differ in practice, this is borne out of cultural differance, (I'm refering to corprate culture here, not national). Toyota are great exponents of Jidoka, meaning that problems, of which Toyota experiance just as much as any other manufacture I've worked for; are delt with imeadiately they become apparent. They will in fact HALT production right there and then and FIX the problem. Only if a pre determined amount of time passes will production continue if the problem can't be fixed in a reasonabe amount of time.

 

In other factories problems are knowingly allowed continue to happen in order to meat production targets.

 

In one aerospace copany I halted a process and actually allowed the WIP (work in progress) to build up whilst I worked with a team of statistitians, mechanics and more important than anyone else, the production operatives to solve the issues that where resulting in scrap parts.

 

The production manager objected and insisted that production continue so he could meet his target, this despite that scrap was running at 30%!

 

After pointing out the cost of halting production was much less than the cost of making scrap, he decided to continue his eronious ways.

 

After pointing out his foolishness he seamed to get rather upset and had security escort me off the site. lol.

 

This is not unusual sadly.

 

Another issue I see regularly is apathy, lazyness, disinterest, selfishness, greed, militancy, uncooperativenes. This is both a management and a shopfloor also.

 

Many compaies run their factories with incompetent managers, who are poorly trained in dealing with people and lack real understanding of where problems lie. Often they blame workers rather than accept responsibility themselves and get to the root cause and fix things. Theses factories are run on fear.

 

In Toyota, managers are challenged to solve problems on a daily basis and a manager reporting 'no problems' will be subject to a gentle discapinary hearing, where further training in the 'toyota way' will be suggested as the course of action to rectify their misunderstanding about problems.

 

On a national cultural basis, within Japan, company directors are charged with looking after jobs. In the UK (and I would suspect the US also) directors are charged with maximizing sareholder value.

 

Historically, throughout the EDO period of the 17th to the late mid 19th century, the protector of the peoples warrior class was the highest apart from the emporor follwed by food producing farmers, then skilled craftsmes, unskilled workers and finally merchants, insurers ans speculator, who where by and large considered to be dirt.

 

However the cost to Tokagawa dynasty of upholding their regime weiged heavy and huge debt was run up with the mercantile Mitsukoshi family and contributed heavily to the demise of the Shogun class, finaly being broken by the American naval commadore Perry

 

Incidently. I drive a Toyota Aygo... It also has the sticking throttle problem.

 

Whilst the Aygo is made down to a price, and lacks the technology you speak of above, it is still built in eastern europe, it's design has been shared with the french PSA group and yet it still lives up to the expected Toyota quality.

 

My MR2 however has a 'Japanese designed' engine, by Yamaha, and they are known to suffer problems (I've been fortunate so far).

 

Throughout this thread you've eluded to world economic problems being down to poor manufacturing (roughly speaking) whereas I think those problems have contributed to some of the ecconomic issues we face, I do also belive that this is infact only a small part of the global problems we face.

 

I hope you never loose the enthusiasum you obviously have for manufacturing and quality.

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Yes, that is the book. My personal belief is that anyone works to his level of competence and to his level of tangible accountability. Unless we implement physical laws that would make managerial level accountable for their blunders, nothing is going to change.

I also agree that Us companies only care for profits and shareholders( mostly). My personal belief is that any money or profit made without creating a consumable, measurable value to the economy should be considered inflation-, and inflation itself is dilution of purchasing power of people who earn it. Thus , I really see no any reason why wallstreet should exist at all. I also don`t see any reason for gambling to exist. Because every dollar that is wasted on gambling, won`t be spent on products that have been created by manufacturers. thus the taxes from gambling only give an illussion of income.

Many of you claim that the US economy collapsed because of toxic mortgages , simply put because people didn`t have enough income to afford a house. Now answer me, why didn`t they have enough income? I truly believe if those people were actually creating actuators for an American equivalent of Denso or really building IBM computers, not just vapour-selling a badge, there would much higher income level in US industries. If 80 per cent of economy is based on consumption , it also means too many people are servicing this consumption, but I haven`t heard of salesclerks at Target or Walmart making 30 bucks an hour. Of course, the greeed was provoked by low interest rates.

As to manufacturing, I couldn`t find a single US company left that would be able to construct an industrial robot for stamping and welding or machining metal components for a car. Now I see how comfortable it is for Gm, to take a german KUKA robot with all the programming done for Opel chassis and floorpan etc .,welding etc. and simply add panels with minor changes to adapt a Buick philosophy or whatever,.Yet you will credit GM for improved quality.

And many of you who will read this, have to understand, that there is ahuge difference between building a subsidiary aborad and manufacturing your own products there and simply buying a ready one from a foreign company and then slapping your badge on it. Now the funny part. Toyota recalls many vehicles because of brake pedals, tracking down the manufacturer, we come across CTS companuy from US, which was using Toyota`s specifications to build the product.( Toyota mistakingly trusted an American manufacturer, and because Denso couldn`t manage the excess production needed, so they trusted it to CTS).The reality is, the CTS outsourcerd the manufacturing of the pedal to a Canadian facility in Misissauga, Ontario. Again where are the Us jobs?). Were they actually building the pedals there ,or just assembling components from China, is another question. Here you can see, how US is stripped of their own jobs, no matter where you go the real input ( and the real salaries!) happen abroad.Was I in charge, would sue the Google for misinforming customers, and selling A Mainland China engineered and built telephone under Google vapour logo. I wish I could start a domino effect and all the Asian hard working companies would come out of the closet for once and for all revealing who really creates things. Thank you all for your good and meaningful answers, would invite more of you to participate in the discussion, including those who work in US factories.

SO what can be done to reverse the trend in US manufacturing and in auto industry ?

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Here you can see how the jobs are lost within US.

 

(New Models That Are Coming from Chrysler-

Jeep compact SUV (2013, supplied by Fiat, may be Panda)

Jeep small CUV (2013, supplied by Fiat, replaces Patriot and Compass)

Jeep Liberty (2013, replaced by Fiat product but retains name)

Chrysler small car (2013, supplied by Fiat)

Chrysler compact sedan (2012, supplied by Fiat, replaces PT Cruiser)

Chrysler Sebring (2013, replaced by Fiat product but retains name)

Chrysler midsize CUV (2013, supplied by Fiat)

Ram midsize unibody pickup (under consideration for 2011)

Ram large and small commercial van (2012, supplied by Fiat)

Dodge small car (2013, supplied by Fiat)

Dodge compact sedan (2012, supplied by Fiat)

Dodge Avenger (major update 2010, replaced by Fiat product 2013)

Dodge full-size CUV (2010)

Fiat 500 (late 2010, convertible 2011, Abarth 2012) .

 

This is how business has always been done a la US style. At first you buy stakes into other company, then prey upon that company buy pumping out all their brain assets- platforms, engines,modules, etc. When the company is close to collapsing because of lack of new products and updates, spin the company off or bankrupt it sellling to another 2 tier or 3 tier company to feast upon the rotting carcass. This way the Saab was killed( constant feeding with McDonald`s type of Opel underpinnings). As there will be virtually no hardware that Fiat will be wanting to use in their cars from Chrysler, they will have to construct everything from scratch by themselves, while Chrysler will feed themselves on older Fiat and the newer component additions. So Chrysler will pump Mitsubishi dry and Fiat at the same time. The only morsels Fiat will get , is Mitsubishi diesels, which they wil proboably not use at all. Isn`t it interesting why would Jeep line be replaced by some Fiat products if Jeep is supposedly a legendary ubercool offroad vehicle? Or maybe it wil be a Japano-spaghetti car where the underpinnings will come from Mitsu derivatives, the tin from Fiat, and the badge from CHrysler? No matter the speculations, prepare for next wave of unemployment surge.... Sorry, that I am so critical.

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Any of your ideas as to what the future of Chrysler or Gm or Ford will be? ( by the way, I am building now a model of nex gen Mustang.)

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