3wheeler Concept, 5 week school project Options

[Daniel Julier]

Hello everyone

Have a look at the result of my last regular school project. Kind of scary that there is just the diploma left... However, what I got to do was a 3wheeled "car" for city use. What you see is some wacom sketches I used as guides to build a scale model 1:10.

 concept.jpg ( 135.32K ) Number of downloads: 53


 modell.jpg ( 200.6K ) Number of downloads: 39



Feedback is always welcome! ;-)
redback




ps. before everyone asks: you enter the vehicle by sliding back the front-window ;-)

[yodesign]

For which target is it for?

[tbroen]

I must say that I like your sketches very much - the greyscale ones - Works really well to describe the shape.

Regarding the functionality I might find that it could be a struggle to get in to the car. Especially the back seat.
Maybe it could be nice with a person inside - because it seems that there is not much room for the head inside. Depending on how high the neck-rest is.

And the rendering could have some more details in some way. It very easily gets to look more like a toy when the shape is that clean.

But otherwise a nice project.

/tbroen

[Daniel Julier]

Thanks for the quick reply :-)

To me quite a few of similar concepts on 3 wheels which are ocasionally spotted on the streets have this unreliable "self made" or even toy-like character I wanted to get rid of. I don't know if some of you agree on that... (make your own picture on: http://3wheelers.com)
Interviewing the designer, ingenieurs and especially useres of this ( http://www.cree.cht ) 3wheeler made me descide to keep the back seat. It is really crowded in the back there but the additional seat was highlighted by users to be a very important feature. I compleately agree, that it might be rather difficult to enter that vehicle.



@yodesign: The concepts target group I didn't define in much detail, but when I designed it I always had that picture of a young guy driving to work in my mind...

@tbroen: It is not a rendering but a picture of the actual physical model taken by camera. (just the black lines ara photoshop)

[desecrator]

if this is just a form exercise, then its neat...simple & good.

however, if its a design project, then i have my concerns...first up, the use of it. how is the 3-wheeler any different from your normal car? how is it making the car scenario any better? does having 2 wheels up front & 1 at the back answer turning issues? what about balance while turning?

then the doors bit. if i have to get in just by sliding the front window back, then i'll have to lift my foot some 4 feet in the air which i wont wont want to do. what about the guy/girl sitting on the rear seat? you HAVE to have a door!!! then how is your seating scheme better than side-by-side seating? when you say 'target group', then you have to take under consideration all the factors that relate to that group. for example, since you have pictured this guy going to work, then you may want to consider factors like would he be driving alone or with someone? what age group does he belong to? single or married? in such conditions, i dont think that this seating would work.

[Daniel Julier]

WOW… really appreciate your critics desecrator :-)

The only REAL reason (as far as I know) to go for a 3-wheeled solution instead of a normal 4-wheel car is the weight of the vehicle. The main problem of today’s cars is simple: they are too heavy and too big for what they actually transport! (Considering the average of 1.3 persons transported in a 5 seat car)
A 3wheeler is quite easy to be made stiff enough just by its outer hull whilst a "normal car" always needs a heavy frame. So if you want to transport just one person (the back seat is just for eventualities) covered and therefore protected from weather and traffic, a 3wheeler is certainly a good choice. The vehicle won’t be as heavy in the end; the engine (I went for a feul-cell and “power-cabs”) can be smaller…

The balance in curves is no problem at all, as long as the vehicle is not leaning into the curves (what this concept isn't doing). As soon as your vehicle can lean into a curve you, as the driver, don't experience the usual forces from the side anymore while doing your turn. This makes it really difficult to judge when the back of the vehicle is "breaking out" (as we call it in German, hope you understand ;-) and makes it therefore quite dangerous.
Having two wheels in front is also mainly for safety reasons. If you would have one wheel in front and two in the back you wouldn't be able to control your vehicle from the point on the front wheel looses grip.

I hang the vehicles body or hull between the two front wheels. Not a good solution in terms of aerodynamics but it was a pure design decision. In the beginning I tried to cover the wheels in a usual car-way and have two seats in the front, but I simply didn’t find any good-looking solution. The 3wheeler got really short. This made it extremely difficult to find a shape with a nice transition from 2 to 1 wheel. To achieve maximum safety the distance between the front wheels should be around 1.40m.

The doorstep is too high. I already agreed on that earlier in this tread. I definitely should have “cut” the door deeper… I didn’t think of that earlier, but doing so could possibly interfere with the stiff hull I have to achieve. Should be possible thou to construct the door in a way that it can take the forces from the body.

So if anyone here thinks I’m a smart-ass: he’s definitely right :-D Actually I don’t know any or at least little of these technical things 100% sure, but I believe in the experts that told me that stuff. I basically asked them the same questions as you asked me above desecrator ;-) If you or anyone reading this knows better then please let me know!


The only thing I disagree with you desecrator is the target group thing. Do you really think I have to know “everything” about my target groups needs to make a concept? I could easily “sneak out” of that here by saying that I simply hadn’t the time to really analyse my target group, but I’m interested on your reply on that question! All I knew was male/female, young (let’s say 25-45), having a job, obviously having the need to have an own vehicle to get to work… isn’t it plenty already ;-)?


Greetings
redback

[grasshoper]

ı dont know which one is more effective. two back or two front wheels?

Sketches and model are really perfect. I think you used toon (vraytoon finaltoon...) for lines in render or is it real ?

[Turbofrog]

It's real. But the finish is immaculate. I'm really impressed.

[Daniel Julier]

Hello everybody... a few more pics:


 DSC_3151.jpg ( 324.49K ) Number of downloads: 13


The original of the above picture before using the path tool in photoshop to draw the black lines.



 DSC_3142.jpg ( 192.87K ) Number of downloads: 13


Another view from the front...




 DSC_3146.jpg ( 332.03K ) Number of downloads: 12


...and last but not least an angle from a bit behind the vehicle which obviously shows that I messed it up there quite a bit.

[halocooter]

the sketches are very nice and the model is too. the model is maybe lacking a bit of detail, and it appears to have a few surface flaws, hard to tell from the pictures. does the vehicle have a name? i think if you were to put some rub-on graphics(INTs) on it would really bring the model to life. great work in general. i have recently seen, in person, some very poorly made student presentation models, so this is refreshing!

keep up the good work!

[desecrator]

WOW… really appreciate your critics desecrator :-)

The only REAL reason (as far as I know) to go for a 3-wheeled solution instead of a normal 4-wheel car is the weight of the vehicle. The main problem of today’s cars is simple: they are too heavy and too big for what they actually transport! (Considering the average of 1.3 persons transported in a 5 seat car)
A 3wheeler is quite easy to be made stiff enough just by its outer hull whilst a "normal car" always needs a heavy frame. So if you want to transport just one person (the back seat is just for eventualities) covered and therefore protected from weather and traffic, a 3wheeler is certainly a good choice. The vehicle won’t be as heavy in the end; the engine (I went for a feul-cell and “power-cabs”) can be smaller…

over here in india, 3-wheelers hve absolutely different norms to follow than 4-wheelers or cars (note that 4-wheelers & cars are different as far as norms are concerned). but then while designing we shouldnt really be thinking of those. anyway...i'm also fresh after a 3-wheeler design project (check out my portfolio link in my signature) & was confronted with the same questions. we presented it as a closed bike rather than an open car...

The balance in curves is no problem at all, as long as the vehicle is not leaning into the curves (what this concept isn't doing). As soon as your vehicle can lean into a curve you, as the driver, don't experience the usual forces from the side anymore while doing your turn. This makes it really difficult to judge when the back of the vehicle is "breaking out" (as we call it in German, hope you understand ;-) and makes it therefore quite dangerous.
Having two wheels in front is also mainly for safety reasons. If you would have one wheel in front and two in the back you wouldn't be able to control your vehicle from the point on the front wheel looses grip.

correct me if i'm wrong but won't this have the same turning radius as a car? unless you can somehow steer using the rear wheel...thats the turning issue i was talking about.

I hang the vehicles body or hull between the two front wheels. Not a good solution in terms of aerodynamics but it was a pure design decision. In the beginning I tried to cover the wheels in a usual car-way and have two seats in the front, but I simply didn’t find any good-looking solution. The 3wheeler got really short. This made it extremely difficult to find a shape with a nice transition from 2 to 1 wheel. To achieve maximum safety the distance between the front wheels should be around 1.40m.

its all cool as long as you have research & numbers behind you

The only thing I disagree with you desecrator is the target group thing. Do you really think I have to know “everything” about my target groups needs to make a concept? I could easily “sneak out” of that here by saying that I simply hadn’t the time to really analyse my target group, but I’m interested on your reply on that question! All I knew was male/female, young (let’s say 25-45), having a job, obviously having the need to have an own vehicle to get to work… isn’t it plenty already ;-)?

again, its always better to have a thorough study backing your concept. my concern was regarding the door thingy only...a little far-fetched but yeah...what if he's married & wants to take his wife along? something on those lines you know...the client can always grill you on such things so why not be prepared?

cheers!

[Daniel Julier]

Hi desecrator...

Sorry for my late reply! ..and thanks again for your comments!

I completely agree with your arguments. I also think that one should have a clear picture of the target group one is designing for; at least in real working environment. But for school purpose you can almost "ignore" it in some projects, as long as your basic idea is not entirely based on a specific target group. My decision in that 3wheeler project was to try to get the hang on shaping a “car body”. Something that is really different from normal product design and I don’t have to do normally.

Certainly it is an important skill if you are able to think in the way a possible user will do. It might even be the “killer skill”, even more important then being able to create nice shapes… But unfortunately the skill of being able to think like a customer seems to be way more important nowadays. I’m really suspicious about the whole target group thing… What can we design that customers will be crazy about? Or even worse: How can we create a need for something (that is not even needed)? …you see (and you certainly knew already), target groups have a lot to do with marketing and I can not cope with that connection somehow. Let’s call it “user group” from now on :-)

Cheers
redback

[Lilith]

amazing sketches great model, i like your works, sorry if you already answered-for this question what did you use to render>?

[Daniel Julier]

@Lilith:
I didn't render anything this time. I built a real scale model (1:10 which was way to small) in the workshop and took pictures with a digital camera. The funny thing to me is, that I set up a photo-studio in the way I know it from rendering tutorials ;-) Am I real?

[Mark Beckman]

Looks good but missing a step(s) to climb in.

A couple of quick notes on 3 wheelers FYI.

Many countrys such as the USA register 3 wheelers as motorcycles so many safety and pollution issues specific to cars (including giving the Goverment one to crash test) can be forgotten making a more cost effective and lighter vehicle. Of course that often means you must wear a crash helmet.

Literal turning circle may be the same (given wheelbase and angle of steered wheels) but without rear corners, many situations can be easier due to 'corner cutting', no pun. Of course for the same reason parking is much easier.

Stability (2F, 1R is also called reverse trike) is due to width of front track (distance between the front wheels) and keeping the weight low and forward well within the triangle. Clever engineering can make a 3 wheeler more stable than a 4 wheeler but of course this statement does not mean that it would be more stable than an equivelent 4 wheeler, it simply wont be. One way to get a very wide front track is to not envelope the wheels with bodywork as to keep the overall width sensable as DJ has done, cycle guards doing the job in his case.

You can see more of these types of ideas and real vehicles if you Google "reverse trike".